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Why Mobs Shouldn’t Drop Their Equipment
October 27, 2006 11:23 am
Ryan Shwayder says it’s fun. Brian Green says it’s a waste of time. I say the data management makes it harder than you think.
We’re all talking about whether or not mobs should drop their equipment. I agree that it’s a neat little feature, and I think neat little realism features can add a lot to a game world, even if nobody consciously notices them. (My pet peeve: worlds with no female mobs. Little thing, nobody’s going to really notice, would make the world feel more organic.) This isn’t a game design blog, though. This is a game data blog.
I worked on a game where humanoid mobs dropped their equipment. When the worldbuilder assigned equipment to a mob, he could specify a drop rate (e.g. “Generic Sword, 25%”). There were a couple of problems with this system:
- When combat formula are extremely complex and mob stat values are different than characters’, it’s already hard enough to predict mob performance without adding equipment on top of it. (We eventually redid the way mob stats were calculated, making all mob equipment cosmetic. This is probably the way that most MMOs should handle mob performance.)
- The treasure system wasn’t smart enough to compensate for the humanoid mobs’ extra loot. The treasure system was balanced to drop stuff worth a certain amount, and mobs with equipment would drop that stuff plus their equipment. Score!
Solution A: Extra Tables for Everyone. Most RPGs have dumb treasure systems. The worldbuilder assigns a treasure table to a mob, and every time that mob spawns, it rolls some random numbers and drops the resulting crap.
You could build a second set of treasure tables and assign them to all the humanoid mobs, but that’s a pain in the ass. (Especially when the treasure system is stupid in addition to dumb, and looking at the tables makes your eyes bleed.) This is what we did. It really, really sucked.
Solution B: We Love Overengineering.You could build a smart treasure system, where you just let the mob know the actual value of the crap it’s supposed to drop. It’d have to take into account the equipment they drop, then add enough extra random crap to meet that desired amount. If a mob without equipment died, it’d get extra crap.
Loot would be more predictable — all mobs of the same level would be equally good choices to kill, reducing the explorers’ joy in finding new camps to exploit for cash. You could engineer the system around that — the worldbuilder could say “these guys drop 25% more stuff than other mobs of their level” or whatever — but then the system is even more complicated. (Also, then the worldbuilders would able to fuck up your careful economic balance. Worldbuilders!)
Solution C: Waste Your Time. Ryan says that you can avoid all these problems by making mob equipment worthless. “Waah!” Right, let’s overburden the item database with totally worthless shit that nobody wants. They might as well just drop melons.
I’m considerate. I don’t want to waste your time. I also don’t want to overengineer the hell out of a system unless there’s a damn good reason, and letting you kill a guy to take his stuff isn’t good enough. And finally, I don’t want to duplicate data and make new treasure tables unless there’s an even better reason, because that work just sucks.
Sorry.
Psychochild wrote:
Exactly. I touched on this briefly in my blog post when I wrote, “This means more development time writing descriptions, making art, and adding entries to a database, but for what result? Let’s be honest here, most people don’t care about this.” But the full explanation here shows the real futility of this on the dev side, and how much more it will add.
Games are more fun when there’s a certain amount of abstraction. Dropping useless garbage is pointless. But, as some of the commenters in the original post point out, you could add a game system to use this garbage.
Great blog, BTW.
Keep up the good work.
Posted on 27-Oct-06 at 11:49 am | Permalink
Raph’s Website » WYSIWYG loot wrote:
[…] It’s been a while since I did a straight-up design topic, and both Sara Jensen (at her new blog!) and Brian Green jumped in to reply to Ryan Shwayder’s original post on the subject, so why not perpetuate it? […]
Posted on 27-Oct-06 at 1:27 pm | Permalink
Tholal wrote:
If all you want to do is create a whack-a-mole, collect the bling game (ala WoW and EQ), where 90+% of the loot is just vendored anyway, then you probably wouldnt even consider a WYSIWYG loot system to begin with. If, on the other hand, the loot your mobs are dropping is 90+% useful, then your database is functioning on a wholly different level and what equipment each mob carries becomes important rather than just a tedious afterthought.
Posted on 27-Oct-06 at 6:11 pm | Permalink
Tess wrote:
For the most part, it doesn’t bother me that mobs don’t drop the gear they’re using. I’m a terrible hoarder. I don’t want to feel compelled to carry around even more junk. Ernest Adams made a good point when he complained about our RPG characters becoming itinerant second-hand arms dealers. It not only fails to be heroic; it’s not even really that fun.
There are, however, two cases in which the lack of drops from visible equipment bothers me:
1.) I have a new character. She needs a sword. I am fighting some guy with a sword. I beat him. But I can’t have his sword. No fair! Where did it go?
2.) I am fighting some guy with a really COOL looking piece of equipment. I covet his cool threads. But I can’t have them. I can sort of explain this one away, under the theory that maybe I slagged his pretty gear during the fight. But it’s still kind of frustrating.
How could one address those frustrations, while also not dropping every damn thing a mob is using? Well, I think that #1 can be handled well just by making sure there’s a good, reliable flow of newbie gear. A lowbie should be able to gear up with low level equipment relatively quickly. Also, lowbies will get lots of warm fuzzies from a quick flow of upgrades in the early levels. (Not necessarily so of high level characters; they invest a lot in their gear, and will be pissed off if it becomes obsolete too quickly.)
I’m not so sure how to deal with #2, though — especially since, as a designer, one may want a particular piece of equipment to be the signature gear of a given boss mob, and its symbolic power would be diminished if everybody and his brother was prancing around in his getup. (Moreover, it would be even more fiction-breaking than his failure to drop that item, since, in theory, there should be only one of him, so it doesn’t make sense for 369 people to be trucking around in his signature fuschia mittens.)
Posted on 27-Oct-06 at 7:52 pm | Permalink
kissodeath wrote:
I like the idea of mobs droping stuff to be used in crafting. A component means someone will want it or need it gives players more opions for loot, do I sell it, do I have X crafted for myself. give it to my personal crafter for brownie points. In the long run frees space ( combine 3 loots to craft 1 item) and items are alot more personal to players(more if nameable) ok damn it yes Im refering to SWG alot here.
Looting a X of meaningless lootage just isnt that fun effort should but put into all items a player bases their (Uberness) on. Playa hating will cut down as well since alot of varies go into finished product. and no one lucky loot makes or breaks one
Posted on 27-Oct-06 at 8:55 pm | Permalink
JuJutsu wrote:
“The worldbuilder assigns a treasure table to a mob, and every time that mob spawns, it rolls some random numbers and drops the resulting crap.”
Well at least you’re honest about the nature of the drops we get when it isn’t WYSIWYG loot.
“I also don’t want to overengineer the hell out of a system unless there’s a damn good reason, and letting you kill a guy to take his stuff isn’t good enough. And finally, I don’t want to duplicate data and make new treasure tables unless there’s an even better reason, because that work just sucks.”
Having an immersive game just isn’t worth the trouble eh? Well as long as having wolves drop coins and rusty pole axes makes your life easier I guess we’ll have to tough it out.
Posted on 27-Oct-06 at 9:24 pm | Permalink
Moorgard wrote:
The simplest approach that requires the least amount of data processing is generally the best way to go, unless there is a compelling reason not to.
For me, the whole WYSIWYG loot thing is a lot of overhead for no apparent fun value. Hell, it even takes away fun, because people like killing rats and finding cool swords. That’s fun. Killing rats and finding a rare rat tusk that you can take to a crafter later and fashion into a sword is delayed fun at best, and for what gameplay value? Half the people who looted the rat tusk destroyed it to make room in their backpack, sold it for cash, or don’t know that anything useful can be made from it. Everybody knows what to do with the cool sword they just looted. If rats only have a chance to drop some component that might be made into something useful for me later, chances are I’ll go hunt the things that give me something I can use right now without needing a third party or an extra timesink.
All the extra data, design time, and processing would be worth it if somebody could prove the WYSIWYG system was more fun. I’ve seen plenty of arguments that it’s more realistic and makes more sense, but nobody has shown me how it’s more fun than getting a sword from a rat.
Posted on 28-Oct-06 at 1:11 am | Permalink
Mox wrote:
It’s not really that it’s more fun to beat up a bandit and get the sword he was just hitting you with, but that it’s less fun to kill a guy earnestly trying to punch your lights out, only to discover he was lugging around a Flamberge of World Destroying that he’d forgotten to try using on you. Or even worse, to find that the crocodile Lockjaw uses his death throes to fashion his own hide into a well-fitting tunic for you. It’s fun in a rewarding storyline way to get consistent loot.
Cosmetic equipment can work OK though, if you keep the categories the same. For example, if you have a monster that appears to be dressed in plate armour and hits you with a two-handed sword, then its loot table should include plate pieces and two-handed swords. If you want a mix of weaponry, have a mix of mob types. Then you as data engineer can sit back and say “it’s up to the worldbuilders to make it as good or bad as they want”
Posted on 28-Oct-06 at 3:59 am | Permalink
robusticus wrote:
Exactly, Mox. It is control and consistency. If I want to fight with a scimitar, but rats can drop all kinds of swords, axes, spears, knuckles, etc… how many rats do I have to kill before I get a scimitar? Or rather, how many rats do I kill before I give up? (5 is the answer, by the way, if rats only live at the very bottom of a dungeon instance)
Obviously rats are less an issue than named mobs. For example, the Oakmyst Scimitar, which supposedly theoretically drops off Lord Everling in Nek1. Ideally we would be able to know why Lord Everling has it, but given his loot table is a mile long just seeing the thing would’ve been great.
So WYSIWIG is just one solution to the craziness that is equivalent to going to a store, closing your eyes, spinning yourself around and pointing to the item you will buy. And then you’re supposed to be happy with it.
Another take on it is to open up the loot tables to player selection. You can have a roll for which player gets to pick. But that idea was rotten tomatoed so bad I’m almost not even willing to go there. But if I were to make a game, that’s most likely how I would do it, because it is fun and makes full advantage of itemcentric creativity.
Posted on 29-Oct-06 at 9:54 am | Permalink
Sara wrote:
Great discussion. Thanks, everybody.
It might seem arbitrary and arcane when the devs come down and say they don’t want to do something because waaah, it’s hard. However, the harder our data pipelines are to work with, the longer it’s going to take to fix bugs and add content.
Treasure systems are a good example, because even a simple random drop system can be really hard to manage. A math problem in a drop table might go months unfixed just because nobody can find it. (Uhh … not that I’ve been there.
)
Posted on 30-Oct-06 at 1:38 pm | Permalink
The Critic`s Look at WYSIWYG Loot at MMO Critic wrote:
[…] As those of you who follow the blogging scene have noticed, WYSIWYG Loot is the newest hot topic in our space. It all started when Ryan Shwayder wrote his “MMO Rant #2: WYSIWYGn’t Loot”, which has gained the attention of some other developers to also post their reprisals and to show why and how come this type of thinking is not being put in to our games. Brian Green, the same developer that I will take on his challenges to provide ‘new ideals’ posts his “Useless features” article. Sara Jensen then replies to the article written by Biran Green with her “Why Mobs Shouldn’t Drop Their Equipment” and finally Raph Koster then puts in his thoughts over at his site with an article titled “WYSIWYG loot”. […]
Posted on 30-Oct-06 at 7:13 pm | Permalink
Looting 2.0 « Voyages in Eternity wrote:
[…] The MMO-dev blog topic of the moment is WYSIWYG loot. This one started at Nerfbat, and spread over time to Psychochild, Raph, Sara Jensen, Darniaq, and probably a dozen other places I haven’t found yet. […]
Posted on 31-Oct-06 at 8:31 pm | Permalink
Tenamdar wrote:
The point I’m not quite understanding here is that everybody seems to be assuming that people are going to WANT to go kill a bunch of rats, bears, or whatever for some kind of payoff.
In current games, the reward for doing so is:
- Certain amount of XP
- Possible completion or advancement within a quest
- Possible useful item
I’d like to see different reasons to kill a mob…
- Maybe I need some skin or meat for a crafting recipe or quest
- Maybe I’ve been tasked to dispatch a rabid beastie that’s been scaring the locals
- Maybe I got attacked and am simply defending one-self
.. and how about if the xp reward was a bit more significant, but you only received xp rewards when not just randomly hunting creatures. You get a quest for X creature, which gives you Y xp for each creature killed up to Z. If you were attacked by a beastie, NOW the beastie is worth a certain amount of XP, because you have a legit reason to be fighting it in the first place (self preservation)…
I guess what I’m trying to hint at a little is that the item tables would not necessary be flooded over with varying instances of essentially useless items because there would be vastly less reason for people to be killing certain beasties due to lack of real reward. So unless motivated by another factor, certain beasties are essentially just color for the world. Of course this is just using the wildlife as an example. Clearly this type of thinking does not apply well at all to the current popular MMORPG games and leans more on the side of “world” than “game” since it would essentially require additional rethinking on why a player does anything in the game. Nonetheless, I present it as my thoughts… my poor 4am coffee-less thoughts… =)
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[…] Buried away in an article on Zul’Aman, an aside to resurrect an old topic: We were also told about a philosophical change at Blizzard, namely logical loot. Previously, the loot tables were somewhat random. They’re not going back and fixing years of content, but now, players can expect creatures to drop things that one would expect. If that bad guy is holding a big, shiny axe, then odds are his loot is a big shiny axe. This is a general goal and a monumental exercise in inter-departmental organization (they need to make sure the artists and loot guys play nice with each other), but one they seem rather committed to. It’s a small touch, but it sure beats wolves coughing up fishing poles! […]
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